Fire and Knowledge

Part of the The Reading Interviews series.

Could you tell us a little about yourself?

My name is Joe Thorn, I am a husband to Jennifer, and father to two children. Our daughter Katherine is five and our son Elias is two. I am the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in northern Illinois.

What are your favorite books? What do you like about them and how have they influenced you?

I am going to define "favorite" as those books that have been most influential in my life that I still enjoy and refer to. Here are a few in no particular order:

• The Life of God in the Soul of Man, Henry Scougal – This books destroys pride and our tendency to trust in the things we do as the measure of our Christianity. It is a yearly read for me and is perhaps the most important book outside of the Bible that I have ever read.
• The Reformed Pastor, Richard Baxter – His model of pastoral calling and care is biblical, beautiful and an uncommon approach today. It is a relational/discipling model that challenges the popular CEO/professional model.
• Vital Godliness, William Plummer – This is the book that focuses on the common spiritual experiences of the Christian (love, joy, backsliding, etc.). God used Vital Godliness in conjunction with Scripture to wake me out of an arrogant and spiritually cold stage of my Christian life.
• Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin – My first time reading through the Institutes showed me that systematic theology can, and must be, a devotional exercise that leads to worship.
• Systematic Theology, Louis Berkhof – My favorite one volume Systematic Theology.
• Holiness by JC Ryle – Ryle shows the connection between doctrine and experience in a powerful way. This is a book I have read a few times for myself and have had the opportunity to lead several others through as a part of dicsipleship.
• By His Grace and For His Glory, Tom Nettles – A fantastic book that focuses on the theological history of baptists and Southern baptists in particular. Essential reading for those in the SBC.
• Bondage of the Will, Martin Luther – Luther’s refutation of Erasmus’ teaching on free will is a powerful read. One that was formative for me theologically.
• Treatise on the Religious Affections, Jonathan Edwards – Edward’s detailed, biblical and rational approach to revival and religious experience is unmatched.

Who are your favorite writers?

The Puritans. I have greatly benefitted from their understanding of the connection between theology and experience, the care of the individual’s soul, and evangelism.

What is the best non-fiction and fiction book you have read recently?

Non-fiction: The best, non-fiction book that I recently read was John Piper’s What Jesus Demands from the World.

Fiction: I don’t read a lot of fiction these days, but I am a big fan of the Harry Potter series, really enjoyed last year’s The Half-Blood Prince, and am eager for the last book in the series to come out.

Many evangelical Christians loathe the Harry Potter series, but you enjoy them. Do you think Christians (and Christian children) can benefit from reading Harry Potter?

There seems to be less antagonism toward the series now than there was a few years ago. There was a lot of ignorant reaction and not much thoughtful reflection going on. The truth is I was one who was concerned about the series when it launched. Back in 2000 I decided to read through the first volume to interact with the content. Turned out that, in my estimation, the Harry Potter series falls more in line with Tolkien and Lewis than Anton LaVey.

I do think the Harry Potter series can be beneficial reading for Christian families and children. Of course like with anything parents have to be discerning concerning what is appropriate for their children to interact with. As the Harry Potter series progresses and the children grow up the story becomes more complex, darker and more mature. Depending on when your children begin reading the series you may want to put a years time in between each volume to allow them to develop as the story and characters develop.

One of the benefits that comes from reading good fiction (and fantasy in particular) is that it explores universal questions, struggles and themes in an extraordinary context with characters we can identify with and learn from. Harry Potter is a character who is concerned for the afflicted, seeks justice, protects the innocent and is willing to give his own life for the lives of others. Much more could be said about this, and Travis Prinzi’s blog is a good resource.

Why do you think reading is important? What has led you to make it a priority in your life?

Growing up I did not enjoy reading at all. It was not until I became a Christian at 18 and realized how ignorant I was about the Bible, God and the Gospel that I knew reading would have to be a part of my life. After finishing my first few books (Swindoll and MacArthur) I was compelled to continue reading. Having not grown up in church reading really helped me to catch up. Now most of the books I read function as supplemental pastoral care for my own soul. I need to be challenged, encouraged and preached to by others.

How many books do you normally read at a time?

I am generally working through 2-3 books at a time on different issues, but I make sure I read through one entire book every week.

Do you mark and take notes while you read? If so, how?

Yeah, but the method has changed over the years. Currently I use both a highlighter and a pen. Small notes in the margins, outlines and where to find specific quotes listed in the front or back blank pages.

Do you have any advice about reading that others might find helpful?

Make reading a part of your regular activity. Read at least one chapter a day - you’ll be surprised how many books you can read in a year if you do that.

Joe blogs at JoeThorn.net.

Part of the The Reading Interviews series.

Could you tell us a little about yourself?

I am single and I studied electrical engineering in college and grad school. I’m now working as a design/test engineer in the communications industry. I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church of North America and am still a member. When I’m not working, I enjoy running, golf, playing soccer, watching movies and listening to music. Oh yeah, and reading.

What are your favorite books? What do you like about them and how have they influenced you?

Well, I could probably make an incredibly long list but I’ll pick a few. I know I’ll forget some.

• Creation Regained by Al Wolters - This is probably the first book that introduced me to the idea of a Christian worldview and I still consider it to be one of the best books on the subject. Especially helpful were the concepts of "structure" and "direction" and how they can help Christians avoid seeing part of God’s good creation as evil.
• Provocations: Spiritual Writings of Soren Kierkegaard - The first half of the book reads like a series of short devotionals and the second half of the book is like a collection of proverbs. I’ve probably read it once a year since I’ve gotten it. Besides, every Calvinist could use a good dose of Kierkegaard.
• Any Calvin and Hobbes book - What can I say, they are hilarious. I’m not sure how much they’ve influenced me, other than helping to remind me not to take stuff so seriously.
• The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder - I re-read this book about 6 months ago and I realized that I had forgotten how much I liked it. I first read the book when I was still an engineering student and at the time it made me very exited about engineering. I think it in many ways captures what Sam Florman calls the "existential pleasures" of engineering.

Who are your favorite writers? Explain.

Paul Feyerabend is probably one of my favorite writers. Unfortunately, he writes in a subject area that not a lot of people are interested in (philosophy of science). He has a contrarian spirit which is as amusing as often as it is enlightening. Roy Clouser is also a favorite author of mine. I would probably list both of his books – The Myth of Religious Neutrality and Knowing with the Heart – as two of my favorites. Other authors I enjoy reading, in no particular order, are Neil Postman, Albert Borgmann, Del Ratzsch, and Steve Talbott.

What is the best non-fiction and fiction book you have read recently? Explain.

Non-fiction: Suspicion and Faith by Merold Westphal - This book has had a huge effect on how I think about some aspects of my life, even though I’m still processing the book in some ways. It is about what Christians can learn from atheists like Freud, Marx, and Nietzsche. The main theme of the book is that religion is affected by the fall as much as anything else. It is essentially a call for Christians to be honest with themselves - to look at what our true motives are for our actions and beliefs, and to own up to those motives and change them, if necessary.

Fiction: I’ve recently re-read the The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I’ve always enjoyed the Sherlock Holmes stories. Besides the Munch Bunch books and the Choose your Own Adventure books, some of my earliest memories of reading were Sherlock Holmes stories.

Why do you think reading is important? What has led you to make it a priority in your life?

I feel like any way that I answer this question will sound cliche, but reading can open you up to people, places, and ideas that you’ve never heard of, seen, or thought of before. In many ways, I need to make reading a priority because its one of the ways that I learn best. I remember in school other people could go to class without reading the textbooks. I could never do that – I learn way more from reading a text than listening to a lecture.

Are there any other books you would like to recommend?

I usually don’t like to give general book recommendations. It’s not that I don’t think there aren’t great books out there that everybody should read – it’s just that books can be very personal. Some books I would recommend to Christians that I wouldn’t recommend to non-Christians. Some books I would recommend to engineers that I wouldn’t recommend to non-engineers.

Usually when I recommend a book it occurs when I’m talking to somebody and I blurt out "Oooh, you should read such and such by so and so!"

How many books do you normally read at a time?

I usually read one book at a time. Usually when I try to start more than one at a time, I’ll find one of the books more enjoyable than the other and I’ll end up reading that one all the way through before I finish the other. I tend to read a lot of articles and papers on the Internet, too, so those keep me busy while I’m reading books in a linear fashion.

Do you mark and take notes while you read? If so, how?

Usually not. If I do, it’s never in the books themselves, it’s always on a separate sheet of paper or on the computer. I can’t stand highlighting and notes in the margins. I think it’s just a matter of me not liking the idea of my past self thinking he knows what’s important for my present self (if anything, I’d want it the other way around!). I have highlighted before and upon re-reading the book, I’ll have no idea why I highlighted it other than that at one time I must have thought it was important.

Macht blogs at Prosthesis.

Part of the The Reading Interviews series.

Could you tell us a little about yourself?

My name is Jeremy A. and I live with my wife Rachel and my one year old daughter Darcy in Judah, Indiana. I am an accountant working in the financial reporting department of a nonprofit. After spending the first quarter of our lives as Pentecostals, Rachel and I joined the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in January 2004.

What are your favorite books? What do you like about them and how have they influenced you?

Anything by Wendell Berry, but What Are People For? remains dear to me as the first book of his I read. His work has given me a more humane view of life. Berry rescued me from a descent into crass anarchocapitalism, a political philosophy where the free market represents the supreme good in society. Reading Berry is as refreshing as a beautiful summer day. Living as he does is not always possible for some of us, but we need to listen to him and honor him for his rooted wisdom.

The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. These books have opened my imagination and given me joy with every reading. I really do know what C.S. Lewis meant when he said of the series, "here are beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron. Here is a book which will break your heart."

Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. Sometimes you just need a good romance – and this is one of the best. To quote Peter Leithart, "Real men read Jane Austen."

Loyalty: An Essay on the Morality of Relationships by George P. Fletcher. As I witnessed the betrayal of some friends of mine I came to the conviction that loyalty was a much neglected virtue. In typical fashion I went looking for a book to see if anyone agreed with me. This book confirmed and clarified my belief. Its philosophy is fundamental to the way I view the world.

Ecclesiastes by The Qoheleth. Here is some hard-bitten wisdom. The guy may be grouchy, but at least he’s honest.

Who are your favorite writers?

Wendell Berry for the reasons given above. Scott Russell Sanders is a writer akin to Berry, with the added bonus of being an English professor at Indiana University, near my home. Gerhard Forde is an excellent Lutheran theologian and a clear writer. Anthony Esolen, a contributing editor for Touchstone Magazine, is a bold soul who always helps me see in new ways. C.S. Lewis – for all the usual reasons. N.T. Wright is one of those rare scholars who combines erudition with readable prose. And when I weary of the weight of these writers’ thoughts I’ll pick up P.G. Wodehouse to lighten the mood.

What is the best non-fiction and fiction book you have read recently?

Non-fiction: Justification by Faith: A Matter of Death and Life by Gerhard Forde. This book not only reignited my interest in theology but also presented fresh ways of thinking about justification. Forde has clarified several issues for me.

Fiction: How Green Was My Valley by Richard Llewellyn. Llewellyn’s prose is forceful and full of emotion. I was drawn powerfully into Huw Morgan’s world of Welsh coalminers. It is a book I will be reading again and again.

Why do you think reading is important? What has led you to make it a priority in your life?

My wife has asked me this same question but in a more mockingly exasperated form. I always answer, "I want to understand." "What?" "Well, everything." Now, while I don’t really expect to realize my goal, I am thoroughly enjoying the attempt. Where else but in books can we have access to the greatest minds of our race? Reading is like participating in a discussion that was already well under way at the time of the Old Testament patriarchs. I want to understand that discussion and, if I feel extremely hubristic, contribute a word or two.

Are there any other books you would like to recommend?

• Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt by Anne Rice. Moving fictional account of the childhood of Jesus, informed by modern NT scholarship.
• Between Noon and Three by Robert Farrar Capon. A parable about God’s scandalous grace.
• Who Moved My Blackberry? by Lucy Kellaway. Office humor.
• Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. Learn how your emotions work.
• Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy by Matthew Scully. A conservative and Christian look at our treatment of animals.

How many books do you normally read at a time?

No more than two. Reading multiple books simultaneously distracts me. If something else catches my attention or I am bored with the book I am reading I simply stop and pick up something else. I used to think it was a mark of virtue to finish every book I picked up. Not longer. Reading should be enjoyable.

Do you mark and take notes while you read? If so, how?

The thought of marking in my books horrifies me. I insist on clean pages. I do, however, take notes occasionally. Usually this will take the form of a blog post, either as a simple quotation or a more extended reflection.

Do you have any advice about reading that others might find helpful?

1. Read judiciously, not profligately. Find the best books on the subject and take your time.
2. Follow C.S. Lewis’s advice: "It is a good rule, after reading a new book, never to allow yourself another new one till you have read an old one in between. If that is too much for you, you should at least read one old one to every three new ones."
3. Avoid reading books like a gunslinger. The purpose of reading is not more notches in your belt, but the acquisition of wisdom.

Jeremy A. blogs at Eating Words.

Part of the The Reading Interviews series.

Justin Taylor is the Study Bible Project Director and Associate Publisher at Crossway Books. He has co-edited numerous books including Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, Sex and the Supremacy of Christ and most recently Overcoming Sin and Temptation. He blogs at Between Two Worlds.

What are your five favorite books? How have they influenced you?

Ah, what a difficult question this is! To be honest, if you asked me again next week, or from a slightly different perspective (like what would be my five desert-island books) I might give a very different list. But I’ll do my best. Oh, one final prefatory comment: I’m going to cheat and give you seven; after all, seven is much more biblical than five!

• The Bible. I know this seems like the obligatory pious answer, but it must go to the top of my list. Though my trust and obedience and thinking don’t always reflect it, the Bible is the source of life. I join the Apostle Peter in saying, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” (John 6:68).
• Augustine, Confessions. I’d put this in an “already” and “not yet” category, in that I’ve already been influenced by it and plan to continue studying it much more in the days ahead. I first read it in my freshman humanities class in college, and I’ve been drawn to it ever since. It’s combination of God-centered autobiography, personal prayer, psychology and theology are profoundly fascinating and insightful.
• William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith. I had a crisis of faith my freshman year of college, studying in a secular religion program. A number of introductory, popular-level works helped to answer some questions, but left me needing and wanting more. God provided Craig’s Reasonable Faith at just the right time. Though I disagree with Craig in some important ways, I thank God for his superb scholarship and passionate commitment to the gospel. It was one of the means God used to keep me from becoming an atheist. (That may sound extreme, but I have always seen the choice as being either full-blown orthodox Christianity or nihilism. Then and now I see no hope in theological liberalism.)
• John Piper, Desiring God. In some ways this is a placeholder for the entire Piper corpus. (I think I’ve read each of his books, except for his published dissertation.) This was another book I read in college. Not only did it provide a paradigm for God’s glory and my job, but it opened up the world of Reformed soteriology and pointed me to the writings of Jonathan Edwards. The Lord has used Piper’s writings throughout the years to convict, challenge, and shape me. God also used his preaching to shatter my perception of pastors as de facto anti-intellectuals.
• Frank Thielman, Paul and the Law. Studying the Apostle Paul’s theology of gospel and law has occupied a major part of my theological and exegetical studies over the ten years. I found Thielman’s treatment—which should be read in conjunction with his shorter but broader book, The Law and the New Testament—to be among the best things I read in shaping and solidifying my present position.
• Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology. Grudem’s was the first systematic theology I read. I eventually had the opportunity to teach through it in various settings. Grudem is an excellent thinker and writer, and he has a heart to communicate God’s truth to God’s people. The result is a textbook that is clear—explaining not assuming difficult concepts. It is also worshipful, with a bent toward practical application. I have learned much from this wise book.
• John Frame, The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God. I first learned of Frame through Grudem. (Frame’s influence can be detected all throughout the work of Grudem, his former student.) If memory serves correctly, this book first came out in 1987 and was the substance of a class on the Christian mind developed at Westminster Seminary in California (where Frame taught for a number of years). It’s an examination of epistemology (theory of knowledge) from a Reformed, covenantal perspective. I found it to be a profound book that has shaped a lot of my thinking. I am also a fan of the second book in this Theology of Lordship series, entitled The Doctrine of God. (You can read my review of it here.)

Who are your favorite writers?

John Owen, John Piper, J. Budziszewski, D. A. Carson, David Powlison, J. I. Packer. I could go on at length about why each of these would be in my “favorites” category—and the list could be expanded quite a bit. Each of these men has a unique ability to “see” and to “say.” They can cut through the fog of confusion and see biblical truths; and then they can convey these truths in wise and winsome ways.

What is the best non-fiction and fiction book you have read recently?

Non-fiction: Communion with God by John Owen. Again, this goes in the “already” and “not yet” category. I’ve read it, but I know that I am going to be returning to it again and again, as Owen explains how we commune with each person of the Trinity. I’m currently editing a new edition of this book with Kelly Kapic, so I hope it will find a new generation of readers.

Fiction: The Complete Stories by Flannery O’Connor. For the most part, left on my own I don’t usually “get” Flannery. But combined with a book like Jill Baumgaertner’s A Proper Scaring, I found it very enjoyable to work through her short stories.

Why do you think reading is important? What has led you to make it a priority in your life?

When I went into kindergarten I couldn’t spell my own name and didn’t know my address. By the first grade I was a voracious reader, competing with my arch-nemesis Bing Oei for who would win the Pizza Book-It award for our class. I’m not sure what changed—perhaps it was my love for pizza that was behind my love for reading!

I really can’t imagine life without reading. It enables us to converse with both the living and the dead. This struck home to me one time working in Doug Moo’s commentary on Romans. $60 can seem like a lot to pay for one book. But how much would I be willing to pay to sit down with Dr. Moo and to have him teach me verse-by-verse through this glorious epistle for months on end? Having his commentary in hand enables me to have 24/7 access to one of our finest NT scholars. That’s a bargain!

Reading can also transport us across the ages. It is amazing to me that despite the span of 1600 years separating us, Augustine can still speak directly into my heart and mind. Reading books like his can humble us (there’s nothing new under the sun) and encourage us (in that God and human nature do not change over the centuries, and therefore works of old can still instruct us and edify us).

Are there any other books you would like to recommend?

A tempting question! If people want advice on reading, one thing I’d mention is to find certain authors you trust and read as much of them as you can. For me, people like D.A. Carson, David Wells, John Piper, John Stott, J. I. Packer, C. J. Mahaney, Jerry Bridges, and David Powlison would be in these categories. It doesn’t mean you’ll agree with everything they say (if you do, you probably aren’t reading or thinking carefully!). But these guys—among many others—are special gifts to the church who have the ability to convict, instruct, and edify us through the written word.

As far as specific books not yet mentioned, there is one series I’d recommend that I don’t think receives enough attention: Resources for Changing Lives, by the faculty at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation. These books are a rich source of wisdom going against the grain of much counsel today on Christian living.

All of the authors you mentioned are Christian. In the past, you have also read and recommended authors like Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, and Henry Hazlitt. What do you think the role of non-Christian books and authors are in the life of a Christian?

This is an important question, Josh. To think rightly about how Christians should think about non-Christian books and authors, it’s helpful to first be clear on the differences between Christian and non-Christian knowledge in general. John Owen pinpoints the difference as well as anyone:

“The difference between believers and unbelievers as to knowledge is not so much in the matter of their knowledge as in the manner of knowing. Unbelievers, some of them, may know more and be able to say more of God, his perfections, and his will, than many believers; but they know nothing as they ought, nothing in a right manner, nothing spiritually and savingly, nothing with a holy, heavenly light. The excellency of a believer is, not that he has a large apprehension of things, but that what he does apprehend, which perhaps may be very little, he sees it in the light of the Spirit of God, in a saving, soul-transforming light; and this is that which gives us communion with God, and not prying thoughts or curious-raised notions.” (John Owen, Overcoming Sin and Temptation)

Because all men know God (Rom. 1:21) and are the receipients of common grace (Matt. 5:45), there is much we can–and should–learn from them, even if they don’t take us all the way to the place of all true wisdom: the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So yes, on issues of race I gladly turn to writers like Shelby Steele and John McWhorter; on economics to Thomas Sowell and Henry Hazlitt; on foreign policy to Victor Davis Hanson and William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer.